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The X's & O's of Basketball :: General :: Rules of the Game :: Charge and Basket Counts????
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commcoach
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Charge and Basket Counts????
« Thread Started on Oct 28, 2009, 9:36pm »
Had this scenario happen tonight in a game:

Player is driving towards the lane on a fast break and a defender enters the lane to take a charge. The defender is already set as the penetrating player passes the free-throw line giving ample room to move out of the way. The offensive player takes 2 steps shoots the ball, then runs into the defender. Ball goes in.

The first ref on the baseline calls it a charge. The second ref then intervenes, says the ball was already up before the contact. Therefore, the basket is good and the charge is called.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. I don't see how you can call a charge and count the basket because otherwise there would be no point in taking charges.

What do you think?
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bdevil15
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Re: Charge and Basket Counts????
« Reply #1 on Oct 28, 2009, 11:14pm »
This used to be far more common than it is now but is a correct call. I used to see this all the time but have seen it less and less over the past ten years or so.
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commcoach
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Re: Charge and Basket Counts????
« Reply #2 on Oct 28, 2009, 11:29pm »

Oct 28, 2009, 11:14pm, bdevil15 wrote:
This used to be far more common than it is now but is a correct call. I used to see this all the time but have seen it less and less over the past ten years or so.


Can you clarify for me? As far as I'm aware, you're still considered to be in the act of shooting until you've landed back on the ground, therefore when you commit a charging foul,the basket doesn't count since the foul occurred in the act of shooting?
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gbrendemuehl
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Re: Charge and Basket Counts????
« Reply #3 on Oct 29, 2009, 1:15pm »
I officiated for 8 years, but haven't continued studying the rules since I stopped, so I'll need to go a look it up.

But my initial response is that the ball becomes dead on a player control foul. So, the basket only counts if the ball has already entered the basketball before the foul is committed.

Gary
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commcoach
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Re: Charge and Basket Counts????
« Reply #4 on Oct 29, 2009, 2:51pm »

Oct 29, 2009, 1:15pm, gbrendemuehl wrote:
I officiated for 8 years, but haven't continued studying the rules since I stopped, so I'll need to go a look it up.

But my initial response is that the ball becomes dead on a player control foul. So, the basket only counts if the ball has already entered the basketball before the foul is committed.

Gary


I'm pretty sure I watched the ball go through the hoop from my back, but if that's the rule and that was what the ref saw then I guess there's not much I can do.
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CoachH
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Re: Charge and Basket Counts????
« Reply #5 on Oct 29, 2009, 4:04pm »
According to FIBA rules, as soon as the ball leaves an offensive player's hands, team control has ended. A charge is a team control foul. So you can't call a charge if the player doesn't have the ball. It's a pushing foul on the (previously) offensive player but if it goes in I think the basket counts. I'll grab my rulebook later and come back to this. But I'm pretty sure that's the rule.
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Re: Charge and Basket Counts????
« Reply #6 on Oct 29, 2009, 10:37pm »

Oct 29, 2009, 4:04pm, CoachH wrote:
According to FIBA rules, as soon as the ball leaves an offensive player's hands, team control has ended. A charge is a team control foul. So you can't call a charge if the player doesn't have the ball. It's a pushing foul on the (previously) offensive player but if it goes in I think the basket counts. I'll grab my rulebook later and come back to this. But I'm pretty sure that's the rule.


Maybe I'm twisting this whole definition around, but then what about shooting fouls? Let's say for example, that I shoot a jump shot and my defender cuts under me like he's boxing out as I'm coming down. By principle of verticality, I'm entitled to the ground underneath me when I'm in the air. Therefore, a foul is called, the basket is good, and I get a free-throw. I don't have the ball, so how can it be a shooting foul?

For example at 3:45, Iverson shoots a 3 and gets fouled on the way down. We all know that's a shooting foul, so why doesn't it translate the other way so that, in the process of a shot, an offensive player commits a charge and the shot doesn't count?
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gbrendemuehl
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Re: Charge and Basket Counts????
« Reply #7 on Oct 30, 2009, 9:23am »

Oct 29, 2009, 10:37pm, commcoach wrote:


Maybe I'm twisting this whole definition around, but then what about shooting fouls? Let's say for example, that I shoot a jump shot and my defender cuts under me like he's boxing out as I'm coming down. By principle of verticality, I'm entitled to the ground underneath me when I'm in the air. Therefore, a foul is called, the basket is good, and I get a free-throw. I don't have the ball, so how can it be a shooting foul?

For example at 3:45, Iverson shoots a 3 and gets fouled on the way down. We all know that's a shooting foul, so why doesn't it translate the other way so that, in the process of a shot, an offensive player commits a charge and the shot doesn't count?


NFHS, FIBA and NBA rules differ, so we all need to be clear what set of rules we are operating under. The NBA has it's own set of rules to make it more entertaining, IMHO. Unfortunately, it's not for me.

Gary
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Re: Charge and Basket Counts????
« Reply #8 on Oct 30, 2009, 8:00pm »
Well unfortunately, as I spoke with the head of the officials for the league, it turns out I am wrong.

He faulted the officials for a poor explanation, but the call was still correct. His points:
* Since the shot was released before the foul, it is correct that the goal should count. That FIBA rule you speak to is used to determine if someone who is fouled should shoot freethrows. That means if this was a foul was committed by the defender, then the shooter would continue to have the opportunity to shoot freethows until both feet return to the floor.
* Since the ball was released that means the shooter's team is no longer in team control so it can't be an offensive foul. An offensive foul means the team committing the foul cannot score. In this case it is just a foul, kind of like a rebounding foul. Here is a possible scenario...if this foul by the shooter is the 5th foul in the quarter then the defensive player on the receiving end of the foul would shoot free throws as well as counting the original basket. When this explanation is used, the foul should be called a "push" not a "charge" to make the call and the ramifications clearer. We try to save "charge" for real offensive fouls.
* I understand your confusion with the rule. It comes down to team control. Once a shot is released, team control is released and therefore the shooter is no longer an offensive player...they are just a player who is in the air. The "act of shooting/2 feet to the floor" piece is protect the shooter from getting run over while they are in the air. It has nothing to do with determining when a call is a charge or a ball-is-gone push. This is a long standing interpretation and it takes some knowledge of other rules to understand this one. I know you are looking for something that is more black and white but the answer does lie in the application of other rules such as "team control".

Personally, I still don't think it makes any sense and I now firmly believe that this definition of a charge vs offensive foul makes it the most lop-sided rule in basketball. But that's the rule and I guess I gotta roll with it.
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